OK, i installed and used old Nvidia setting, it is able to write xorg.conf too keep right resultion, when i monitor is setup for other output.. no more 640x480.. i also discovered that is working with Mate display utility too, but you have to boot with monitor on.. when you switch monitor later.. resolution would update to right one.. but icons are still mess and display utility is not able to detect monitor.. so Linux is simply not able to do right monitor hot plug.. Im a bit glad that this setup, has only one monitor, because multimonitoring with Linux was always PITA with Linux.. and it would complicate things for sure..
Even when was able to use all monitors like one extended desktop.. i always had problem to have taskbars on all monitors with shared list of all running programs on each as im used to. Windows 10 are now able to do it by default, but im using Display Fusion for it.. it cost $5 or so it sales and its licence for multiple computers and it is working in Win XP+..

@ruthan

Zitat von ruthan im Beitrag #135

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Zitat

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This video I could not see how they added 7 keyboards or how they assigned to each VM. Also 7 players and usually you have maybe at most 4 video outputs. Did they install multiple video cards into the system? What about the sound output for each VM?

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Next time really look at video, there you can see that they are using 7 videocards.

Zitat

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How do you plan to add 2 keyboards? One PS/2 port for Keyboard. Are you using USB for USB keyboard #2 and if so how do you assign to the other VM to use USB keyboard instead of PS/2 keyboard?

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That one is simple when you add keyboard through etdev to machine, its always act as PS/2 one.

Zitat

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Usually the controller problem is multikeyboard and multimouse not fixed and keyboard and mouse are tied to each other.

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This is working well, only device which is assigned to specific machines work with it.. and you have to reason assign more that 1 to each virtual machine, its working fine with all virtualization tools like Virtalbox and Vmware, only some interpreters as Dosbox etc would have problem with it, because is nothing like per device assignment.

Zitat von XPLives im Beitrag #134

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Another issue is two sound cards only one can be chosen. So if you can assign which sound card for second machine to fix this.

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Here i dont understand where suppose to be problem? You can boot Linux with multiple sound card and you can pass through one or more soundcards to each virtual Qemu machine, you can select which one.. all devices which you pass through to virtual machine are no more available in main OS, they only ready to do something, only after some virtual machine to which they are pass through are started.

Zitat von XPLives im Beitrag #134

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Slots problem is PCI slots on newer hardware. Lucky you may have 1 PCI slot and sometimes 2 PCI slots and rarer over time. So having more than 2 machines in one computer may not be possible if not enough PCI slots for the cards.

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Zitat

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Slots problem is PCI slots on newer hardware. Lucky you may have 1 PCI slot and sometimes 2 PCI slots and rarer over time. So having more than 2 machines in one computer may not be possible if not enough PCI slots for the cards.

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Its possible but not with every HW, same as Crysis also not working on old 486, you need good HW for purpose, but you dont really need PCI, as i proved that PCI-E gen 1 videocards cards are for Windows 98 working too.. emulated sound card has flaws but they are working too, other way how to have good sound and save slots are USB sound cards, Win9x has support for them, with physical machines they are working, with Qemu someone has to test them, but they is 95%+ that they will work, because they just need working Win98 USB, nothing more.

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That video is not 40 minutes, but 14 minutes and you can click through in minutes to see how HW is used.

That video is just show what is possible, when you push the limits with technology, no need to do it at home, but actually there are not super expensive boards with 7 PCI-E long slots so you can make 6x Geforce 6xxx Win9x machine quite easily with some 8 core cpu..

Zitat

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The only thing I haven't tested is you mentioned on your X79 you got DOS and a PCI sound card to work with DOS games for digitized speech and music. Was that correct? Which sound card make/model did you test to do this in real DOS (not emulated) and which DOS program successfully had both digitized speech and music working on it? And which DOS version did you use? It might be helpful to reuse the same exact drivers, config.sys, and autoexec.bat files that you used to verify this and then I'll test step up to the next chipset until it finally stops working.

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I already linked these you should really pay more attention.. Yeah its working with Aureal Vortexes 1/2 and Yamahas 7x4, details are here:
https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=61044
https://docs.zoho.com/sheet/published.do...9e034&mode=html

@ruthan

Zitat von ruthan im Beitrag #138

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That video is not 40 minutes, but 14 minutes and you can click through in minutes to see how HW is used.

That video is just show what is possible, when you push the limits with technology, no need to do it at home, but actually there are not super expensive boards with 7 PCI-E long slots so you can make 6x Geforce 6xxx Win9x machine quite easily with some 8 core cpu..

Zitat

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The only thing I haven't tested is you mentioned on your X79 you got DOS and a PCI sound card to work with DOS games for digitized speech and music. Was that correct? Which sound card make/model did you test to do this in real DOS (not emulated) and which DOS program successfully had both digitized speech and music working on it? And which DOS version did you use? It might be helpful to reuse the same exact drivers, config.sys, and autoexec.bat files that you used to verify this and then I'll test step up to the next chipset until it finally stops working.

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I already linked these you should really pay more attention.. Yeah its working with Aureal Vortexes 1/2 and Yamahas 7x4, details are here:
https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=61044
https://docs.zoho.com/sheet/published.do...9e034&mode=html

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I didn't reexamine the video. But I didn't have time to watch the entire thing last night being late and I had not planned on responding till a month or two later. Maybe another night after downloading the video rather than buffering it I'll rewatch it but 14 mins is still a bit long to watch Linus maybe that's why I thought it was 40 minutes. Most of what he said was pretty boring stuff and I probably skipped over the parts you mentioned due to tiredness.

It would be pointless to use 6 Geforce cards in one system. You're going to want Voodoos for this experiment and PCI slots. The Geforce 6K doesn't have Windows 3.1 drivers which is why going 9X it would not be preferable either since there were a lot of games optimized for Voodoo during this era. Most GeForce 6 level games were ported to 2000/XP so better run on something more powerful or even GT 730 for lower power consumption. Quake 3 is a good example.

Again your links only list the "chipset" not the actual card make and model you used in your actual test.

Did you use a Diamond MX200 PCI or some other card brand? I've already tested a bunch of cheaper brands with those Aureal and Yamaha chipsets and it doesn't see it on a new motherboard. That's why I need to know exactly which card make and model you used to verify if it's the card brand that is more compatible that worked. That would at least be a better way to confirm a good working card and trying it on every chipset until it works/fails. If you used some no name brand for testing than it would be better to test with something better just to be certain it wasn't just that card.

I'm not exactly certain since your first language is not English some of your writing is a bit hard to understand and maybe some of the translating of my English doesn't get through. But is the X58 the newest you were able to get the DOS PCI sound card working with SB digitized voice and music working in DOS games?

I saw you mentioned wanting a X79 for a donation. So you don't have a X79 motherboard then for testing?

Now I read some new post you got an old X79. If true you should repeat all your X58 DOS tests to see if any changes in compatibility.

Now if you don't have an X79 then more testing would have to be done further back than I thought. I actually didn't invest much in that era of technology in huge part due to no more ISA slots. I had some AGP/PCIe motherboard that I setup with a Core Solo at one point that might be around that same time period but the USB port fried one of my USB flash drives and I never finished the project.

@XPLives
I think that you trying to search for problems.. not way how to solve them. There is not silver bullet solution, you really have only 3 choices how to play 3D Win98 games in higher resolutions (to exclude PCem emulator which can simulate at the best K6-2 at 266 Mhz + 2x Voodoo 2 with fastest todays CPU):
1) back in era old HW
2) new physical machine with old videocard
3) KVM passthrough with old videocard

All of there have lots of disadvantages, for example:
1) You need extra space, machines are usually more noisy that todays machines, some parts are hard to get or expensive, maintenance is hassle, because lots of things are not working with old machine - often no USB boot, often no live cds / backuping tools cd /s.. some programs refuse to work because if required higher instruction sets.
2) There is hassle to make it even working.. and you need some monitor input switching, extra monitors, bios profiles etc.. You can make Windows 98 sound working but you need PCI slot, or PCI-e PCI extension.. or USB sound card and working USB. If want to something in safe mode i will need also at least PS/2 keyboard. You can use
3) Main hassle is initial software setup.. after that you can run 1 or more virtualized machine along side modern linux and it has advantages.. Biggest problem is so far only emulated Dos sound, but its software problem, this can get better quickly and for free in the future.

Zitat

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You're going to want Voodoos for this experiment and PCI slots. The Geforce 6K doesn't have Windows 3.1 drivers which is why going 9X it would not be preferable either since there were a lot of games optimized for Voodoo during this era. Most GeForce 6 level games were ported to 2000/XP so better run on something more powerful or even GT 730 for lower power consumption. Quake 3 is a good example.

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I have Voodoo 3 PCI but for me its too slow and because nGlide is working i can run GLide games faster on more modern cards and Voodoo 3 doesnt scale well with fast CPU. Win 3.1 - its not games system, i dont know any 3D game for it, you can use it fine with virtualized emulated graphics, its just 2/3 lines change is Qemu starting script. Im not claiming that Geforce 6 is best card, best choice would be probably some Geforce 2/3 in PCI version, which are rare and expensive.. maybe, maybe Matrox G400 Max, even Geforce 5 would be much better, there are also Radeon X300- X850 PCi-e which are still quite cheap and available..
Quake 3 is running on everything.. even on ARM Linux machines, Android etc, that is why i like to test it.. its quite demanding so was nice to show that is able work at 1920x1200 at 90FPS stable.. you course are more demanding Win98 games - im lazy to search for them online - but Doom 3 for sure, Gothic II, Unreal tournament 2003 or 2004, if someone will point out some game demos list, i dont mind to test them.

Zitat

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Again your links only list the "chipset" not the actual card make and model you used in your actual test.

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Really only chipsets matters you can search with chipset name on eBay. Otherwise its like packages, it doesnt change compatibility. So find couple cards by chipset and select right one based on other criteria. I have cards, where i never actually have to cared who is original manufacturer or exact type.
There are some high end cards with Aureals or Yamahas, but it will not help with compatibility. Bettter Yamahas has optical audio out, proven is AOPEN AW744L II, someone from Vogons bought and sold couple of hundreds of them.,best Aureal Vortex 2 is probably - Aureal SQ2500 it has digital sound out too.

Zitat

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I saw you mentioned wanting a X79 for a donation. So you don't have a X79 motherboard then for testing?

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Old news i have one, already testing its working with Aureals and Yamahas, i prefer Gigabytes because of primary gpu slot selection prefer, mine is ga-x79-up4 rev 1.1 .. here is actually some brand info of my HW:
https://docs.zoho.com/sheet/open/8mn7n8e...ails/ranges/B14

@ruthan

Zitat

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Original hardware always wins.

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Not for me, i could probably move some my old hw case to my main room and place it beside of my desk and connect it to my main keyboard, mouse and use some KVM switch for it.. but still some HW changing would be annoying because of room space problems, cables etc.
If Qemu would be able to work with PCI dos card passthrough it would be clear victory for me.. I would be able to use Linux as gloried boot loader and use just 1 main rig for everything from Dos to Win10, without rebooting.. So i would be play to play Dos / Win98 games and just by press mouse / keyboard release hotkey i would be able to use modern goodies as Discord, Browser, Youtube etc. It would need some time and work and some temporary 1 TB NVME SSD for data, but i would able to migrate all my phisycal modern OS quite easy to Qemu machines.. hassle would be MacOS to regarding some online info its doable too.
With working HDMI swithc input autodetection / switch, it monitor switching would be solved, so only problem would be sound input handling.. with modern OS its easy you can again use HDMI sound and D/A convertor to connect ouput to real speaker.. But for legacy audion you would have to use some manual audio input switch, or mixer board, unless someone will finnaly make some audio input switching device, which i would for years.. or maybe i can use PCI DOs / Windows 98 card with digital audio output.. and maybe it would be possible connect such signal into hdmi audio which would be handled by HDMI switch too, but i would need somehow mix DVI picture and that digital audio together.. as 1 hdmi video+out input - this is not my cup of tea.. but in theory it would work.
For also some good side effects like that XP would run from any NVME disk fine, with any modern Lan NIC etc.
Other problem to solve would be not working input releasing, but i guess that i my rare problem, with my setup.

Nglide

Zitat von XPLives im Beitrag #141

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V3 seemed really fast in my test that maybe newer PCI slots have better bandwidth than past. But if your nGlide can work in 98SE then that would be a better method to run on modern hardware bare metal. I think it only works in Windows 2000/XP or later.

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Zitat

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GeForce 5 I tested but it did have overheating problems so probably better to go with 6 series or go 7 series for Windows 2000. But during 9X era I find Radeon had better graphics support.

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Use back in era coolers sucks.. it needs big of shelf passive 3dr party cooler for any newer card, expert these which were already designed as passive one, that why i like Geforce 6600LE its passive one and 1 slot card.. and its still able to max Q3. Im sure that nvidia had much better drivers support at least for older card in Win98 and there was lots of info that ATI drivers and especially its OpenGL sucks, but i never actually had problems, but other hand i have used it heavily in Win 98 era machine, i have some my set of 20,30 games which i like than there is not problem.. But there are people which had much more knowledge about this.

Zitat

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I think if you can keep testing your X79 and compare to X58 all DOS titles if compatibility is equal or broken that would be a very useful update. You can start a X79 test log here and make a new thread. I would try to help build it together but need to have the same exact sound card, drivers, boot files used to do confirmed testing.

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Its not really needed, because i have consulted manuals and chipset diagram is the same as for X58, if my memory serves with same ICH10 sub chipset.. i tested some small subset of games and compatibility is same, so im quite sure that it would be same for all other games.. Only problem is only 1 PCi slot, so you can use Vortex + Yamaha combo for best compatibility and sound quality.. or not without some PCI to multiple PCI adapter - which im not able to find.. and you would need to solve some case space problems to house it.

Zitat

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But we do know that without a true ISA slot nothing PCI has can compare in DOS sound compatibility. If possible to bridge this gap or use USB Audio.

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Sense of all my testing and sheet is to show that conclusion is highly questionable.. i tested 160 high profile, highly rated games.. and i was able to reach 85% procent of compatibility for Yamahas, 88% for Vortexes and 97% with combo.. Here are exactly numbers:
https://docs.zoho.com/sheet/open/8mn7n8e...mary/ranges/G39
Some even people are even quite fine even with i865 + SB Live, which is giving you 80% of compatibility.

Its not often working out of box, you have to mess with sound setup and memory setup etc.. find out in which mode which game is working, i but you can use my hints in testing set as guide, what you have to setup.. i have my ultimate configs and drivers packages, to quickly setup different modes. So of these games simply has some design flaws that are only working with SB on certain IRQ etc, so not all hassle in caused just by old systems etc.. I had to mess with Dosbox settings too. Last but not less important, is that all this testing process is just my creation, so there could be some ways how to make even more games working, some patches which im not aware.. and people can still making new fixes.
Look at https://www.serdashop.com/OPL2LPT people are still making patches for more and more games.

Its worth to mention that i did big free demos and free games testing package for make testing faster:
http://vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?fileid=1572&menustate=0

X99 is dead for dos sound - i tested it got nothing, there not neede internal wiring as on all newer chipsets.

Zoho documents - i cant do anything with that, i dunno if Google sheets are more compatible, you can write to Zoho to keep old Browsers compatible, but they will probably send you away.. or you can ask someone for fixing Zoho support in some custom builld, or they are tricks to fake Firefox version. Other way could be some Vmware, VirtualBox, Qemu on WinXP and Linux / Win7 virtual machine within.
Otherwise you can only download my sheets as Excel Spreedsheet -attached.

Hmm, im trying to make working ATI X800,X700 it seems that Linux rom parser have really problem with ATI cards, i again got cat: rom: Input/output error . I have found that GPU-Z is able to download roms from cards, its working for new primary cards, but at least with Win7, this feature is not working, maybe because there is only MS default driver installed.
I know that bios flash utilities has update option to save old rom before flashing, but i would mean place card to other machine boot with it and find compatible utility and do it. For some card you can just download some bios online, but for some im not really sure, if that online bios is right one, some companies web already are dead, dont supporting it.. or card is not in Techpower up bios database..
If someone know some other utility for that, i would like to know.

Hmm, so far these (X700,X800) cards arent working, both have same problem, im getting picture through pass through, but its broken. On picture on digital output i got nothing what is quite typical.. but usually DVI Emulator is helping. not now. On analog im getting picture, but its not readable, these cards are notorios to be fried, or has hlaf broken memory, but with physical machine, both of them worked few months ago, so i dont believe that i fried both by same way..
There is really refuse to working without rom files..
Device option ROM contents are probably invalid (check dmesg).
Skip option ROM probe with rombar=0, or load from file with romfile=

and there is big chance that rom files which i tried, arent right ones.. if wrong rom file can generate such broken picture.. i dunno, have to discover it.. there is one more thing is point to wrong rom, when i trying to restart machine which error, im getting error: vfio: Unable to power on device, stuck in D3 , i was getting similar error with Nvidia card, after first shutdown with missing bios.. Got sing is that during machine boot process is picture on screen changing so machine is somehow running.

These card are listed in system as 2 devices - one as vga card second and display controller (secondary ouput), i past through both, first main one with x-vga parameter second without it.. Because this could be problem too.

I build Qemu 4.2 for Windows with unofficial 3dfx and sound patches from kjliew with hyper-v and hax acceleration support (Dos only, Windows 98 is crashing when desktop is loading):
https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?p=835963#p835963
So you can play Glide games with emulated graphics (its recommended to use VBE9x 2d drivers) with Qemu on Windows. In both cases you need just copy kjliews glide wrappers to system path or too game directory.. You can download wrapper files here:
https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=60950
32bit (i386) version should be a bit faster, exe without "w" at the end should be better, w - version, has some stripped control features, but it should work too.

You can build it for Linux too, if you know or want to mess with Qemu building, because its not easy and im have KVM when i can use nGLide, i will not do it now..

Some more info about Qemu emulated 3Dfx, why it matters.. I probably now that there is some Dosbox at least unofficial 3Dfx support like Gullikozas old but awesome build.. and there is Pcem, well my advantage is Qemu 3Dfx is that is much faster, so games really running smoothly. Kjliew also working on OpenGL support for Windows 98 so after that only missing thing would be Direct3D support and of course classic Qemu not 3D related bugs.

Here are details:
https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?p=832278#p832278

I dont have too much videocards for which make pass-through sense, because there is no AGP on modern boards and there are only few PCI-E capable of running Win98.
I tried tried some Frakenstein Matrox G200 MMS PCI card - it has 3 or 4 G200 on 1 card and main sense of these is multi monitoring.. and its working fine, so probably other Matrox card will too. I has same issues with rom parser for Linux, so it seems that its really working only for Nvidia cards so far..

I interesting thing for this card is that it has even more 4 lspci devices, but they have same ids.. when i tried to passthrogh not primary device, i got error, but passthrough only main device is working.

No rom file needed for multiple start, that is nice.. and 3D is working fine, i played Quake 3, but its card for 640x480.

I ok, i made 3Dfx Voodoo 3 2000 working. No rom file need, i was affraid that on Z170 i will not even boot, but its really problem of only S3 and Cirrus old cards.

As i said better its not highres card.. There are maybe better drivers thatn used 1.07 and maybe full version of Quake 3 is better optimalizer thatn Q3 demo 1.11, but this Geforce 6 its running fine with it 90 FPS+ at 1600x1200.
I tried V3 timedemo - first 1 test on 1024x768 and full 16bit details and i got 37 FPS for 1024x768 and 55 FPS for 800x600, so with this card you can play at half resolutions of mainstream Geforce 6600LE.. Good is that with nice back in era 1600x1200 monitor you get 800x600 which any pixel interpolation, so picture is clean.
Yeah there are faster Voodoo 3 card 3000 and 3500 but i would not expect more than 25% performance boost and you would get probably better 800x600 than fast enough 1024x768, yeah of course you can low details.. but this 1999 card is not simply good enough for more demanding Win98 games.. its 20 years when i bought card which im not testing:)

But yeah even emulation is much faster, its probably faster that real cards, Kjliew got Q3 1024x768 running at 300 fps on some laptop with Intel HD.

So we need some summary time.

Passthrough is really working for majority of videocards and soundcards, its actually better than expected. Except "evil" ATI videocards everything else is working. One shame is that Pericom PCIe-PCI is not working.. but as Rayer point out, its quite possible that its problem that if my MB already has ASM1083 PCI chip and slot.. that there could be conflict and with MB without PCI slot, it could actually work better.. that we need to test.
I dont see as big problem that S3 or Tridents and ATI Mach 64 are not even posting with new works, because they are only 2D cards and Qemu has Cirrus 2d card emulation, so its not really loss.

With ATI maybe battle is not lost.. but its not working with only some MBs, same there is some patch workaround etc.. if someone want to help just google passthrough of old ATI cards, if there are some success stories.. i though that ATI Mach 64 worked with Unraid, but you know my memory :(

I still dont understand 1 thing, my system acting as onboard sound cart would be somehow connected to iGPU.

When i added iGPu to passthough vfio-pci list have lots Linux sound.. and now i had some sound devices but there some missing Test speakers dialog.. and sound doesnt worked.. and was getting Qemu errors that hda is not available for emulation of AC97 or SB16.. i would swear that it worked fine before, but i had to remove iGPu from vfio list to make it working again.

I would understand if these 2 would be in same IOMMU group, but they arent, or i dont understand how its working, here are lspci -mm and find /sys/kernel/iommu_groups/ -type l outputs, in theory it could be problem of my iGPU problems.. I maybe share some PCI-E root or something like that.

Display adaper is 00:02.0 .. is IOMMU group 2.. soundcard is :1f.3 group 13 where are other on board devices include LAN, but i dont use them for passthrough.

Update: Hmm im still having at least for some boots not working audio problems, when i try to run virtual machine im getting, maybe is also some permission hell, but im not aware of any changes..:

Home directory not accessible: Permission denied
ALSA lib pcm_dmix.c:1052:(snd_pcm_dmix_open) unable to open slave
alsa: Could not initialize DAC
alsa: Failed to open `default':
alsa: Reason: Device or resource busy
ALSA lib pcm_dmix.c:1052:(snd_pcm_dmix_open) unable to open slave
alsa: Could not initialize DAC
alsa: Failed to open `default':
alsa: Reason: Device or resource busy
audio: Failed to create voice `adlib'
qemu-system-x86_64: Initialization of device adlib failed: Initializing audio voice failed


lspci -mm